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by Peter Moskos

April 15, 2015

Why are Christians so violent?

I know that headline is unfair clickbait, but there are many things that could be said about this video. Here's a Daily News story.

I think it's interesting primarily to show what can happen when officers fail to gain control of a situation: a mess. A lethal mess. A cop gets shot. Two of the fighting Graver family get shot, one fatally.

Tactically, clearly mistakes were made, but it's hard to second guess. It's rare to find a group that is so willing and able to fight cops. Still, in terms of "things that could have gone better," one place to look is that fight only started after the cops arrived on scene. That could be a place for improvement. Once the brawl is on, well this is why you always want a fight to be two, three, or four police to one. What a mess. What part of "get on the ground" don't they understand.


campbell said...

First and foremost, once your buddy is on the ground with multiple assailants struggling over his gun, it's time to start shooting people until that stops. It's a minor miracle there aren't dead cops as a result of that total lack of decisive action. God, what a meltdown those guys had. Quit mindlessly yelling verbal commands and fucking fight and get some people in handcuffs.

Dave in IL said...

“We won't do any events where there's gonna be illegal drugs. Or any form of promiscuity,” the family band wrote.

Oh puke. They sure don't seem to have a problem attacking cops. Rednecks fucking amaze me. They'll swing on you, threaten to kill you and call you sir at the same time. Yes sir, no sir, if I see you on the street I'll fucking kill you, fag!

I know that is stereotyping, but that has just been my experience. They are best buds with a dude in uniform until they get caught with their hand in the cookie jar. Then watch out!

Campbell: Agreed. I don't work in a setting where firearms are allowed (at hospitals we have the crossed out gun signs that protect us all from harm, like Jeebuz ;)). But if some fucking billies got me on the ground during a fracas in the ER or a waiting room, I sure hope my fellow officers would go to work on the suspects ASAP. When fists/feet are flying, it's a little late to be shouting commands.

Moskos said...

I'm just thinking out loud here. But is part of the problem a reliance on less-lethal weaponry?

I always thought I was joking when I said Tasers were making cops pussies. But now I thinking I may have been right.

"Fucking fight" is right. But maybe they were fighting. They just weren't winning. It's not like they weren't trying.

I hate to second guess, but deep down I *know* me and my squad would have had this under control so much quicker. I would have been cracking people with my straight-baton, for starters, and gone from there.

Also, don't start fighting one-on-one. It looks like a friggin bench-clearing hockey brawl.

Get a few officers to get one person in cuffs. Have the other cops protect those cops. Then go for the next buy. One by one. Right?

Some are saying had the fighters been black, they would have been shot. But I find that a bit seeing how three people were shot.

This video is going to be shown in police academies for a long time.

campbell said...

I always thought I was joking when I said Tasers were making cops pussies.

It's a real thing. There's lots of guys on the job totally over reliant on the tools and so they don't have the practice or reflexes to go hands on or fight empty handed.

I *know* me and my squad would have had this under control so much quicker.

I think that's absolutely right. I'm pretty sure part of the issue here is that it's a small town that's 80 percent white. Their department is only like 30 sworn. I'm guessing they don't see a lot of noncompliance let alone a full on melee like that. They look just totally unprepared for that kind of situation.

Dave in IL said...

Peter: "I always thought I was joking when I said Tasers were making cops pussies. But now I thinking I may have been right"

I think you are. I've been saying that (or some derivative of that) for a number of years as well and I was not joking. To say the least, overreliance on tools is NOT improving outcomes or the image of the police in the US.

Police do not have to be ninjas. But they should have solid hand-to-hand skills. More important than that are the presence and verbal aspects of the force continuum (not a strength of many police at this point). Calm breeds calm. But if things are rolling before you get there or soon after you arrive, then it is what it is. Nothing works all of the time.

As you suggest, teamwork is key in these situations. The aggressive person will challenge you to go one-on-one, but you didn't get paid for that and neither do I. Stop the threat, don't give in to his challenges/taunts.

Generally what works best for us is to move in laterally and control the subjects arms. If they are bucking, knee strikes to the lateral thighs can slow them down. Ground control techniques would follow in a normal case, but in a multiple attacker scenario like this case, moving the suspect away from the crowd ASAP (and protecting the arresting officers, as you said) would be necessary.

IrishPirate said...

Even the Orthodox Christians have their nutty rituals.


Moskos said...

Yeah. That shit is crazy.
There were even some firecrackers here in Astoria on Easter. I was like, "what the hell are the Greeks doing lighting firecrackers on Easter?" Then I thought of those churches in Xios!